Talk:Jack Deforest

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Name

If you can show me one instance he is referred to as DeForest over Deforest within the show or other Simpsons media, that would make a difference. Official subtitles on the episode refer to him as "Deforest" so this is his name. Last I checked, Jack Deforest was not Humphrey Bogart, nor is he a real person. The Solar Dragon 17:41, April 14, 2024 (EDT)

If he's not a real person, I don't think anyone would mind using the proper DeForest with a capitalized F.

Also the standard you're requesting isn't consistent with other articles. I don't argue an article about a totally original character such as Kathy should be renamed to Cathy since how would have not why of know if it's meant to be with K or C so I'd of course defer to subtitles or another official source since I'm not saying official sources ought to be ignored to any and all place nor do I think anarchy would break out if the subtitles are not deferred to in every single circumstance particular if this article just went with DeForest. But again, I'm not going to pretend I don't know how DeForest is spelled because the subtitles tell me different no more than any other misspelling of a real person or place. I'm not going to pretend they picked a name out of a hat or specially picked Bogie's real life middle name, but deliberately chose to misspell it? I just look at it as "what was the point of this reference or how does it work as a joke" and the entire character is just a running riff on Humphrey Bogart. I just try to think of something else reading it and "Oh the made-up last name of Bogie-caricature is another reference to Humphrey Bogart. That's kind of interesting/funny" seems like a more likely response than "Wait what the hell, the Disney+ subtitles use a lowercase l. This wiki is totally unreliable."

I know and try to appreciate how much of your time and energy I'm taking up and often on every minor stuff and I don't want to pick a mini-battle whenever I'm not agreed with, but in spite of it all, I care. Snowball II (talk) 18:36, April 14, 2024 (EDT)

We go with the sources we have for things like names. And the only source we have is the subtitles, which refer to him as "Deforest". Could it be the case of the writer not capitalizing the F? Maybe. But that doesn't matter because this is the name we're given in the subtitles. Therefore, it is the name we use. I'm gonna use a recent example of Costas Becker to support this. His name was intended to be Kostas. It's Kostas in the script. It's Kostas in all the promotional material. However, legal had an issue with the name Kostas, so he became Costas for the episode's airing, as seen in subtitles and later in Tapped Out. Therefore, the name of his article is now at "Costas Becker" rather than the intended name of Kostas. Deforest is the official name we're given, no matter what the intentions behind the name are. So this is the name we go with. The Solar Dragon 18:44, April 14, 2024 (EDT)

But again the example isn't apt since Kostas/Coastas example is like Kathy/Cathy I already used as they're not referring remotely to any real person or place. You kept using "official" when it's just Disney+ subtitles which you haven't defer to in every circumstance before so unsure what makes beyond reproach now. I looked up reddit examples of subtitles flups such as DesMoines, but it would be silly to pretend that's the official name with Simpsonsoverse. And that's just proper names, plenty of time the wording of lines isn't right either. Again why pretend it's not DeForest since of course is a Bogie reference as is the entire character just for the sake of matching streaming substiles folks who might ever read the article won't have ever seen because behind the scenes it fits into "official" naming. I refer inform people since they can watch episode, but knowing how he's named DeForest is more informative/interesting than Disney+ subtitles. I'm unsure why bother with the subtitles since they are unneeded anymore than "The Simpsons are going to Japan" needs a subtitle to know how to spell Japan. I get DeForest isn't as well-known as Des Moines or Japan (I sear I really do), but it's just as silly to as misspell it. Snowball II (talk) 19:47, April 14, 2024 (EDT)

The point is we don't know if there was a reason for them to change the name from "DeForest" to "Deforest". We don't know if this was the intended spelling or not. We don't know if something behind the scenes made them change it. Therefore, we go with what we're given. The only source we have for his name is from the subtitles. Therefore, we go with what the source we have says. You have yet to provide a single source saying that his name is Jack DeForest. Therefore, his page should be at Jack Deforest as the one source we do have says that. If the character comes to Tapped Out and is called DeForest there, that'll be a second source for his name that contradicts the first source we have. But until then, we don't have any source to back up his name being "DeForest". The Solar Dragon 07:04, April 15, 2024 (EDT)

[1] Gracie Films' legal dept. didn't rush out to shut down this use of a capitalized F. Snowball II (talk) 07:48, April 15, 2024 (EDT)

Screen Rant is not owned by The Simpsons or Disney. The Solar Dragon 08:08, April 15, 2024 (EDT)

Neither is this fan wiki. Again I already pointed out plenty of example of speculation or defying subtitles in naming, yet this minor edit is like pulling teeth. I don't want to assume, but did you know before yesterday that DeForest was Humphrey Bogart's middle name and how it's spelled. Snowball II (talk) 09:05, April 15, 2024 (EDT)

Yes, we're not owned by Disney. However, we use the official names of characters wherever possible. We make sure that names are sourced. And if they're not and we can't find a source for the name, we move the page. Because we don't want incorrect or false information on the wiki. We're a fan wiki, not a fanon wiki. And what does it matter if I knew his middle name yesterday? The point is that the only official source we have of his name says it's "Deforest". I have checked elsewhere to see if I can find any other spelling of the character's name and I can't find a single other official source. So, unless you can pull out an official source from The Simpsons or related media that says otherwise, we're sticking with Deforest and that is final. The Solar Dragon 09:18, April 15, 2024 (EDT)

Again you only are creating a standard for me which is inconsistent with other articles, but not to answer your question with another question (which you kind of did too), but why not just state if you knew before yesterday. Snowball II (talk) 09:48, April 15, 2024 (EDT)

How am I creating an inconsistent standard? My standard is to use official sources for names. This is what I have done with this article. This is what I do with every article. How is that inconsistent in the slightest? The Solar Dragon 09:51, April 15, 2024 (EDT)

Again why answer the question with another question. We had this discussion so many times and I've pointed this naming is applied to me do I really need to repeat it since it didn't matter then and unsure why it would matter now.Snowball II (talk) 09:56, April 15, 2024 (EDT)

If you mean the question you asked about if I knew Bogart's middle name before today, then I didn't answer that as it's irrelevant to the conversation at hand. Anyway, unless you can find an official source that says his surname is "DeForest", I suggest that you drop this because official spellings are always chosen over fan-made spellings and that is final. The Solar Dragon 10:00, April 15, 2024 (EDT)

Why do I have to drop it as if this standard is beyond legit questioning. It's totally relevant. If a person knew the reference and the spelling wouldn't need to see the subtitles anymore to know how to spell Khrushchev or Pittsburgh or anything else. I find my position is even more sourced and easily verifiable. If somebody else reads the article would have not no clue what was or wasn't on Disney+ subtitles nor that is what the article is referencing for the spelling, but learning it's a real life reference to Humphrey Bogart's middle name DeForest which is stated with this article proper and easy to see is true rather than needing to purchase and login into Disney+. Snowball II (talk) 10:16, April 15, 2024 (EDT)

It's irrelevant as this article is about Jack Deforest, not Humphrey Bogart. If the subtitles had misspelled Bogart's middle name, that would be one thing. However, this is a separate character called Jack Deforest. The subtitles refer to him as "Deforest". There is no other source to say otherwise. Therefore the page title is "Jack Deforest" as this is what the only source we have for his name says. I've asked you multiple times to come up with a source that spells his name as "Jack DeForest" yet you haven't. Which I'll assume means you haven't found a source. Most likely because there isn't one. Therefore, the official source we have is the one we go with. I don't see how that is so hard for you to accept? We go with official sources for page names wherever possible. We are not making an exception for this article based on your feelings. The Solar Dragon 10:28, April 15, 2024 (EDT)

As you pointed out already, it's an article on unreal character. A character whose whole joke only works as a reference to Humphrey Bogart. You've written to me before about being too focus on real world knowledge since there are plenty of same example where the show defies it i.e. no real state can border Nevada, Ohio, Kentucky and Maine. I'm not at all arguing against that, but also get that Kentucky, Ohio, Nevada and Maine not all bordering each other in the real world is also done for the sake of the joke of how ridiculous it is. I don't want to tick for tack nitpicking like what official source has Aunt Gladys' last name was Gurney (especially as she called Miss Bouvier in that episode) or Marge's mom's middle name is Ingrid. The thing is I'm fine with them and I don't want them changed and kind worried if I pointed them or other examples out you would change them as it has happened before.

I've tried not make any putdowns while responding to your concerns and even if you disagree, it wasn't just based on easily dismissed "my feelings." Do you actual want to know why I'm not easily accepting it or what is rhetorical. Snowball II (talk) 11:04, April 15, 2024 (EDT)

The credited writer of this episode used capital F. http://twitter.com/Rlazebnik/status/716778778727358464 Snowball II (talk) 14:23, April 15, 2024 (EDT)

Be that as it may, as with the Kostas/Costas situation I mentioned above, we're taking how names are spelled in episodes over what is said on Twitter, even by the credited writers. Because apparently they can be wrong sometimes. I'd like to say "Okay, since the writer said it's that, it's that." but unfortunately we can no longer do so because even the credited writers can be wrong when it comes to the final episode that airs. The Solar Dragon 14:40, April 15, 2024 (EDT)

Wrote out a response, but as usual it kept getting longer and longer and I'm honestly wondering if I just wrote nothing you would you be more or less likely to switch the f to F. Snowball II (talk) 15:01, April 15, 2024 (EDT)

So should start undoing any other articles where the name was cited to an Al Jean or another staff writers' tweet?

It's not exactly "spelled in the episode," but subtitles and I don't who or what types them up, but it isn't the actual real writer of the episode. The thing with this Kostas/Costas situation now creating a new standard is in that situation the subtitles (which haven't changed) are wrong and it's still a singular and unique situation to be a workable standard. Staffer tweets are cited everywhere including this article. To change the Kostas/Costas name was at least cited back to something, but still unsure what verifiable proof in this exact circumstance of DeForest or Deforest that the man who made-up this character is wrong or even might be I just figured a man who himself capitalized the third letter in his last name would be even more careful about it. because Kostas/Costas situation was about Tapped Out using a different spelling which isn't the case here and as you pointed out the Kostas/Costas was played by major guest star in heavily promoted two-parter so load of press material from the studio rather than only the Disney+ subtitles which you yourself have already acknowledge can and have been wrong before? Also if it's a Kostas/Costas, you can just change if and when Jack makes it to Tapped-Out at that time, but now it's just a potential situation. Snowball II (talk) 16:41, April 15, 2024 (EDT)

I really suggest you just drop this. I am not changing my stance on this unless you can pull up some proof from official Simpsons media that his name is "DeForest". The Solar Dragon 16:53, April 15, 2024 (EDT)

But that doesn't actual address how the writer of the episode isn't one since seems pretty official, no?? Especially another writer's tweet is cited with this article. All I am trying to do is address your own concerns and I don't think any of my own questions or concerns have been belligerent or hostile or not in good faith so perhaps pushy and unwelcomed, but didn't violation of the terms of service. You asked me why I have a hard time accepting this, but it just seemed so obvious that I didn't expect this much pushback even more so after you won't have to worry about an exception for me and "my feelings" (I'll admit that hit did get under my skin a bit which actually push me harder which in the end made me look up the writer himself which I wish I had just thought to do from the start) since the naming won't have anything to do with me as it was Rob LaZebnik who actually noted how to spell DeForest, but I think it's only fair to ask why so against discussion and maybe take a pause and revisit a little bit later on since it just seems like a sound choice to defer to the writer of this episode regardless if it started out because of "my feelings" (sorry, that's the last time I mentioned reference to "my feelings" stuff and I regret using it already)? Snowball II (talk) 17:38, April 15, 2024 (EDT)

Going against the pause I suggested barely 10 minutes ago, but can't help myself since since somebody else asked the same question I (guessing) you did using Jack DeForest which also got a reply from Al Jean's twitter account without any legal issues. [2] Snowball II (talk) 18:36, April 15, 2024 (EDT)